Conversation with dr Katarzyna Szlachetko

Conversation with dr Katarzyna Szlachetko

Faculty of Law and Administration, Department of Administrative Law

Thank you for the opportunity to talk. The first question is: how do you understand the idea of sustainable development?

I’m an administrative lawyer, so when I talk about the idea of sustainable development, I mean the normative context. For me, sustainable development is about the principle of law. The way of understanding sustainable development results from many international documents, primarily those adopted by the United Nations. The turning point was the Rio de Janeiro Declaration of 1992, which not only linked environmental protection with sustainable development but also emphasised the social and economic dimension of this principle, drawing attention to the need to eliminate poverty and reduce differences in the standard of living of people around the world. However, it must be remembered that although human needs are very important, their satisfaction must respect the protection of other values: natural, environmental, maintaining ecological balance and biodiversity, which is being talked about so much today (for example in the context of the EU Strategy for Biodiversity 2030). International and EU documents express the principle of intergenerational solidarity. The Polish legislator also considers the principle of sustainable development already at the constitutional level – in Article 5. There is a clear declaration that the Republic of Poland ensures environmental protection, guided by the principle of sustainable development. This is a guiding principle that should influence the shape of state policies at every level, both central and local. The principle of sustainable development is defined in the Environmental Protection Law and refers to its most important aspects in the international sense. The first is the necessity to meet human needs and create conditions for socio-economic development and economic growth. The second is the protection of the environment and natural values. The third one is to create or maintain good conditions for development for future generations. I think this “triad” expresses how I understand the idea of sustainable development. This idea is also closely related to spatial planning, including the principle of spatial order. This is also one of the basic principles that should be followed by the legislators and entities equipped with tools to implement social policy. In my opinion, it is very important both in the process of making and applying the law to “stick” to the original meaning of the idea of sustainable development. It is about skilful “balancing” and “harmonising” three pillars: social, economic, and environmental, which, however, does not mean their absolute equality in every case. I share the views presented in the legal doctrine, according to which, in certain circumstances, the legislator or the body applying the law must recognise the priority of values and needs related to one of the pillars. These are situations in which it’s not possible to reconcile the values and needs arising from each pillar or, in a specific case, priority must be given to the needs and values related to only one of the pillars. This is then justified by specific protection requirements.

You mentioned the European Union. What do you think is the EU’s role in supporting the sustainable development goals?

Currently, the famous European Green Deal is of great importance, which is the European Commission’s flagship document in the field of zero-emission policy and counteracting climate change. The goals are very ambitious – carbon neutrality by 2050. Creating a supra-state discourse is very important in this regard. I hope that the European Union will be a leader that will lead the Member States along. Of course, there’s also a legal context, to what extent the EU can impose certain solutions on the Member States, guided by the principle of subsidiarity. However, taking joint actions is a necessary condition for adapting to climate change, because the related problems are universal and cross-border. Some scientists believe that we have already exceeded the planetary resilience boundaries, others that we still have some time, but everyone seems to agree that we need to act now with a long-term perspective. On the other hand, it is worrying that the EU’s flagship documents are not comprehensive. They can’t be treated as documents that fully address the issues of SD. I have been interested in the issue of artificial light pollution for two years. Unfortunately, neither the European Green Deal nor the Biodiversity Strategy 2030 mention this problem although this pollution has a huge degradative impact on biodiversity. A year after the latter of these documents was issued, the European Commission, because of the opinions of experts, scientific communities, and some Member States, declared that its policy would include new categories of pollutants. The concept of light pollution even appeared in the operational document “Zero Pollution Action Plan”, but without detailed implementation measures. It is a challenge to ensure that the law both at the EU level and of individual Member States keeps up with the very dynamically changing needs and conditions resulting from technological progress and the increase in consumption. This is where the key role of public law comes into play – to ensure sustainable development, considering non-legal circumstances, such as the current ones related to the energy crisis and the war in Ukraine. In my opinion, the obligation of the Member States to introduce solutions in national law that strengthen the climate dimension of urban policies is also very important in the context of sustainable development.

You’ve mentioned your interest in artificial light pollution. Do you conduct research related to various areas of sustainable development?

I’m primarily interested in the legal regulation of the investment and construction process, which often has a huge impact on the environment and changes in it, so issues related to environmental protection law are important for me, as has for some time been the role of law in relation to climate change. As part of these broad interests, I pay special attention to sustainable spatial planning, hence, among other things, the organisation in May 2022 at the Faculty of Law and Administration in cooperation with the Metropolitan Institute of the so-called Green Conference, where experts and scientists discussed the need to change certain paradigms in sustainable spatial planning. The conference was interdisciplinary, we cooperate with lawyers, urban planners, geographers, and everyone who deals with spatial planning. In addition, I also conduct research as part of my own Good Light Law research programme at the Metropolitan Institute. I deal with sustainable outdoor lighting policy – I’m interested in the legal and administrative aspects of planning, arranging, installing, and controlling outdoor lighting infrastructure. This relates to important extra-legal aspects, including the issue of energy efficiency, environmental protection and counteracting environmental pollution with artificial light, issues of safety of roads and users of public space after dark, the problem of protecting the dark sky, because, unfortunately, we are systematically losing this heritage due to the uncontrolled emission of artificial light in places where it’s unnecessary. We are dealing here with various non-legal issues, which prompted me to study how law and administration can help in this area and ensure that people’s needs related to artificial light are well met while respecting environmental and natural values. The utilitarian needs and those related to the above-mentioned safety are obvious, but there are also aesthetic ones, and some mention economic needs. In April this year, as part of a grant financed by the National Science Centre, I had an opportunity to learn about solutions in the field of sustainable outdoor lighting policy in Copenhagen – a city where sustainable development is not talked about. It just “is” there. Copenhagen effectively implements a sustainable outdoor lighting policy, even though national legislation doesn’t provide a “hard” legal basis for its creation and pursuance. This is an expression of the bold and effective use of tasks and competences independence, which the Danish Constitution grants to the municipalities.

I’ve never thought about outdoor lighting in this way, although I also suffer sometimes, I can’t sleep when the light pours through the window after dark…

 

…unfortunately, this has a very negative impact on human chronobiology because it disrupts the production of melatonin, which means that we can’t regenerate. Scientists confirm that excessive exposure to artificial light at night is also a carcinogenic factor. Social awareness in this area is still quite low, and the problem in Poland is to convince people that light can also have negative effects because it’s usually associated with something good.

What solution, in your opinion, that would contribute to the attainment of the sustainable development goals could be introduced at our university?

I think that the University of Gdansk has enormous scientific, teaching, and infrastructural potential. Today, almost every researcher in his field reaches for, to a greater or lesser extent, the principle of sustainable development. We have scientific and teaching staff who can play a huge role in creating scientific discourse around this idea, especially through conferences, seminars, and scientific publications. A popular science initiative would also be important. The idea is for the University of Gdansk to become a meeting place, a space for exchanging ideas among various communities, not only scientific and expert but also political ones and local NGOs. It must strive to raise society’s awareness of the role and importance of sustainable development in everyday life. As a university, we should also act in the teaching field, i.e., shape the awareness of the young people we deal with every day. I think that the ideal solution would be to introduce a mandatory lecture, a general interdisciplinary academic course, during which representatives of various fields of science could teach their modules. The circumstances in which universities operate are changing, but I think that this potential of young people must be well used. In addition, it is important to show that nature-based solutions can be introduced on the campus, i.e., solutions related to the retention of water reservoirs, to green infrastructure, and that it’s possible to use the interesting shapes of our very modern buildings and the space around them. The idea is to show that certain solutions can be introduced, although I realise that this involves various financial and technical challenges. As far as possible, the University of Gdansk could become an example of a “green university”, showing how sustainable development can be implemented in practice on the university campus.

You’ve just answered one of my questions regarding the role of education. Do you take up the topic of SD in your teaching activities?

Yes, to the extent that the curriculum of lectures and classes allows me to do it. When talking about detailed issues of administrative law – the investment and construction process or spatial planning, it is impossible to avoid this topic. It is a necessity, one of the paradigms when it comes to the legislator’s legislative activity to adopt solutions that will enable the implementation of sustainable development in practice, and the role of public law in this respect is enormous. The lack of legal solutions can often be a barrier to achieving the sustainable development goals, as indicated in the 2030 Agenda. The law should facilitate and support the implementation of private and public projects that serve the lasting and sustainable development. The initiative should be on the side of the public authorities, but society, individual entities and students should also be encouraged to introduce innovations based on the goals of the 2030 Agenda on their own.

And what are your experiences? Are students interested in this issue?

I think they’re already aware of the importance of sustainable development because they are keenly interested in public discourse. The topic of sustainable development may be a bit problematic because it’s “fashionable” (some even identify it with a certain kind of ideology) and at the same time, it is the subject of many political disputes. It’s difficult to ignore the issue of sustainable development. I see this interest, of course from the perspective of our law and administration students who deal with the legal and administrative environment.

What barriers and challenges do you see in relation to the goals of the 2030 Agenda?

First, mental barriers. Convincing society that this is an important problem the solution of which we can’t postpone. Today, a lot is being said about the Anthropocene epoch, some scientists even believe that it is necessary to introduce the name of a new geological epoch. It doesn’t officially exist, but this concept reflects the essence of the problem – we are dealing with enormous, dynamic development, urbanisation, and progressive environmental degradation that need to be curbed, the way of perceiving sustainable development should be changed, and, to some extent, it should be put on a pedestal. Lack of sufficient public awareness is, I think, the first barrier. Legal solutions are the second barrier. For example, the burning issue of adapting cities to ongoing climate change. In Poland, there are still no appropriate legal tools to implement an effective adaptation and mitigation policy. Even if there is goodwill, especially of local government entities (I believe that the implementation of adaptation tools and solutions is primarily the task of decentralised entities), there is a lack of the central-level legislator’s specific actions that would enable the effective pursuance of sustainable development policy. Although we do have the Act on the Principles of Development Policy of 2006, which was amended quite recently, the barrier is that the Polish legislator has problems with observing the principle of coherence of public policy acts. There are many different planning acts, strategies, and programmes, but there are no “links” that would allow these activities to be carried out in a coherent, complex, and comprehensive manner. The last barrier is, of course, the financial one, i.e., obtaining external and internal funds for the implementation of projects and investments that are, for some reasons, profitable, but also expensive. The lack of funds from the National Recovery Plan is a sin of the government of the term of office of Parliament in 2019-2023, for which generations will pay.

I really like what you think about the law – the law does not exist in isolation. This social factor is extremely important.

Persons who are sceptical about sustainable development very often stress the fact that people and their needs are “most important”. Man is important but does harm to himself by destroying his surroundings. Everyone should be aware that by not taking initiatives in the field of sustainable development, they are harming themselves and subsequent generations: children, grandchildren, and intergenerational solidarity within the smallest social unit is important to us. Maybe this is a way to reach society and make them aware that we all have a common, very serious problem today.

I will come back to the law, one of its functions is to protect, isn’t it?

The protective function of law is multi-faceted because people need to be protected, but also landscape, cultural, natural, and environmental values need to be protected, so here the principle of proportionality is extremely important, and in my opinion, the idea and, at the same time, the legal principle of sustainable development should bring this proportionality into effect. Of course, sustainable development can be defined in law in various ways, but maintaining balance comes down to ensuring that all values are mutually respected, without excessive damage, and this is what the legislator should also be guided by. Let me clarify – it’s great that there is a legal definition of sustainable development, but it must be followed by specific measures, actions and legal tools. This is what is missing in our legal order and in the practice of applying the law, that’s my opinion.

So we have a definition, but not much results from it.

The problem is the implementation. This requires specific tasks and competences, sometimes some “courage” of officials, heads of public administration bodies and judges in making the principle of sustainable development more realistic.

But probably we have such problems not only in law. Everything’s before us. I have one more question for you. Which sustainable development goal is the most important for you and why?

I think it would be difficult to choose one of the SDGs. It certainly is meeting basic human housing needs and, of course, those related to food. It’s difficult for me to accept the fact that so much food is wasted in the world, and at the same time we have people who suffer from hunger in the 21st century. The issue of access to clean water and broadly understood adaptation to climate change are also very important goals for me. I see huge potential at the local and local government level in this area. I think that as a local government community, we can cope with this task, on our own behalf and on our own responsibility, in accordance with the principle of independence, with appropriate support from the state and ensured sources of financing. In fact, almost all the sustainable development goals come down to a pressing problem: combating climate change. In fact, even some lawyers say that a separate field is beginning to emerge, that is climate law or climate change law. This is also a response to the needs of sustainable development and many individual tasks related to it.

Jeszcze wrócę do prawa, jedną z jego funkcji jest ta ochronna, prawda?

Funkcja ochronna prawa ma charakter wieloaspektowy, ponieważ trzeba chronić ludzi, ale też trzeba chronić wartości krajobrazowe, kulturowe, przyrodnicze, środowiskowe, więc tutaj zasada proporcjonalności jest niezwykle istotna, a według mnie idea i jednocześnie zasada prawna zrównoważonego rozwoju tę proporcjonalność powinna urzeczywistniać. Oczywiście można na różne sposoby definiować w prawie zrównoważony rozwój, ale zachowanie balansu sprowadza się do tego, żeby wszystkie wartości były realizowane we wzajemnym poszanowaniu, bez nadmiernego uszczerbku i tym prawodawca też powinien się kierować. Może doprecyzuję – świetnie, że funkcjonuje definicja prawna zrównoważonego rozwoju, ale za tym muszą iść skonkretyzowane środki, działania i narzędzia prawne. Tego brakuje w naszym porządku prawnym, takie mam odczucie.

Czyli mamy definicję, ale za tym jeszcze niewiele idzie.

Problemem jest wdrażanie. Do tego są potrzebne konkretne zadania i kompetencje.

Ale to chyba nie tylko w prawie mamy takie problemy. Wszystko przed nami. Mam jeszcze jedno pytanie do Pani. Który z celów zrównoważonego rozwoju jest Pani najbliższy i dlaczego?

Myślę, że trudno byłoby wybrać jeden z celów zrównoważonego rozwoju. Na pewno jest to zaspokajanie elementarnych potrzeb mieszkaniowych człowieka i oczywiście tych związanych z żywnością. Trudno jest mi zaakceptować fakt, że tyle żywności jest marnowanej na świecie, a jednocześnie mamy w XXI wieku osoby, które głodują. Kwestia dostępu do czystej wody, szeroko rozumiana adaptacja do zmian klimatu jest również dla mnie bardzo ważnym celem. Widzę ogromny potencjał na poziomie lokalnym i na poziomie samorządowym w tym obszarze. Myślę, że jako wspólnota samorządowa jesteśmy w stanie sobie z tym zadaniem poradzić, we własnym imieniu i na własną odpowiedzialność, zgodnie z zasadą samodzielności, przy odpowiednim wsparciu państwa i zapewnieniu źródeł finansowania. W zasadzie prawie wszystkie cele zrównoważonego rozwoju sprowadzają się do palącego problemu, czyli przeciwdziałaniu zmianom klimatu. Zresztą nawet niektórzy prawnicy mówią, że zaczyna się kształtować osobna dziedzina, jak prawo klimatu czy prawo zmiany klimatu. To też jest odpowiedź na potrzeby zrównoważonego rozwoju i wielu jednostkowych zadań z tym związanych.

Bardzo Pani dziękuję.

Rozmawiała Elżbieta Czapka